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Discussion in 'Player Feedback' started by Leo_Ziegler, Dec 25, 2016.
Yeah, a LOT of RPing to win & Powergaming. I feel you.
If we did go the mechanical way, kill on sight still isn't allowed. So I wouldn't say that's a hybrid, that's just straight up mechanical. This is a role play server at the end of the day and writing a couple lines (X draws shotgun on x and fires.) before a gunfight shouldn't remove the intensity. It may allow the other player to compose themselves better and fight back, I personally am neutral on kill on sight, but switching to mechanical doesn't remove the rule. I'd like to hear other opinions on this because I don't know what to think of it, I do think although that allowing kill on sight will turn off new players even if it may ruin the element of surprise. What happens if I get up to get some oreos or something and I come back to a dead body, (assuming I was in a zombie-free space)?
Kill on sight is related to something: Don't kill without a reason. Why kill this person who gave me all it's stuff and is now completely naked because I am a very bad bandit? - robberies should only end in a kill if the victim tries to escape or gives you a reason.
KoS is an absolute no for me in general, I don't think anyone would really consider it for when/if we implement mechanical fights as the default (which iI do hope for) A couple of lines of dialogue are fine under most circumstances and don't ruin the element of surprise as much as going OOC to tediously choose which combat system you will use etcetera. That being said, I would not mind KoS being enabled during certain faction/group wars if it is agreed upon between them on the forums - I think this was an option on the old New Dawn.
I had a KoS agreement with Darius once. None of us ever died.
Thanks for spare me bb
But ye, I agree
That isn't related. Say a character has been held prisoner by a group of characters. (Edit: And escapes.)
Character 1: Walks into room, with a shotgun in hand. He fires at Character 2.
Character 2: Retaliates.
Typing up some lines doesn't mean there is dialogue, or any specific details, it just warns the player of what is about to come. That character had a reason to kill that character and didn't want to say anything before blasting him to pieces, so he didn't. A character that is more sympathetic may try to hold them at gunpoint, talk a bit, and then fire. If a character attempts to run away, I would say that the other character can fire, because nothing else needs to be said other than bullets. It's more so an initiation of combat, if that makes sense.
Edit: Under faction wars, yeah, I think KoS should be allowed, if all parties agree to it, because that is an initiation.
I can walk in a hostage situation with an m16 and shoot em all OOC too, but that wouldn't be smart and people would die
ICly people would die too. The hostage, the bad boe, and probably you from the wounds.
Have it be like DayzRP. Group of dudes rob you, you come back 10 minutes later and light the fuck out of them with a gun you stole from somebody and get their loot with no interaction, then next thing you know you're sniped by the dude you stole the gun from, and the cycle continues and I don't really know where I'm going with this anymore so I'm gonna jump off a cliff and die good bye cruel world.
I am posting here because it seems like people are trying to figure out the right thing to do, and I have a lot of experience with this crap so here we go.
It's never okay to just kill on sight someone, there are situations that possibly involve a fire without RP incident, such as rounding a corner at the same time as someone else and scaring the crap out of them ICly and OOCly to the point they discharge their weapon at you out of reaction.
The majority of good gun fights in Project Zomboid is you both talk it out, and then both just book it and run for cover and take pot shots from around the corner at one another, allowing for the possibility of getting shot one or two times and then retreating with the other person having the option to pursue if it is worth risking his life. It's super intense and quite often nobody has to die.
Bad gun fights in Project Zomboid is a pvp fight that happens and you just stand there trying to fire the 15 bullets from your pistol the fastest. Luckily if both players do that they both die so people learn pretty quickly not to get into point blank gun fights, which in turn reduces the amount of pvp violence on the server!
I have always thought and still think there needs to be some kind of "Turn based etiquette". I'm not feeling thoughtful enough to really describe it as in-depth as I have in the past but basically you need to be understanding of a situation and RP it accordingly. For a quick pair of examples:
Player 1 comes at Player 2 and they argue, making both characters tense and aggressive. Player 2 has enough and emotes pulling his weapon, Player 1 replies by doing the same. Now both players are on edge, and although Player 2 pulled first, IF they both pulled pistols then they'd emote and then act together. IF Player 1 had to do something elaborate like grab a rifle from their back, then they act AFTER Player 1.
Player 1 ambushes Player 2 from out of the forest. In this example Player 1 is ready, Player 2 is not! Player 1 gets a free shot before Player 2 can react. Simple.
Now those are dead simple examples and bare as fuck in concept. You can complain that it can be abused by people just jumping everyone; but that is where the issue becomes something else. You can't help bad roleplay and people that simply don't read the rules. Also if you claim it sounds too complex, stop roleplaying now please. It is probably the A.D.D. minded folks like you that ruined this server... Go back to Fallout 4 and leave us alone, thank you!
A lot of tabletop manages to mesh ideas with turn-based initiatives and stuff like that. If text-based pvp was able to have more structure, like a "one action per entry" thing, it might be less prone to powergaming.
I'm all for the gentleman's handshake that is a quality text pvp scenario, and I've been really lucky to have only text pvp'ed people who were also in it for some intense writing. That virtual handshake just isn't there, though, when random players, tense players, people with OOC grudges, etc are in the mix.
Even if there's a "one action per text entry" thing, a player could be smart and flesh out those details for a fight's exploit. Idk, I just feel it's rare to have every party involved in text pvp be completely respectful of others, make the scene a priority, and not milk the blind spots.
I don't really have an opinion on how a "text fight system" would even work. It'd probably gimp creativity, too. There are an extraordinary amount of variables at play if the RPer decides to summon them as part of their text toolkit. Just muh two cents.
There's really a big problem with perception of time with text pvp. One player might go, "he slips his pistol from his belt, thumbing the safety. He is still. He separates his feet, bracing for impact. His jaw clenches, but his arms shake gently."
Player two: "he pulls out his gun and fires."
If text pvp were to become a viable thing for players who dont have that "virtual gentlemen's handshake of 'lets make a great scene together'," maybe more definitive rules could help. Again, though, messing with text pvp rules is like playing with fire if you're trying to protect creativity. If two players who're similar RPers, descriptively, decide to fight, the result is pretty magical. It's seamless, emotional, and, well, beautiful.
That perfect pairing is just really friggen hard to find. And, if it is found, more often than not you'll see the same 2-3 players text pvping one another repeatedly because they're guaranteed a seamless scene that's all about story, emotion, and character development.
Hell, I'll admit it: there are certainly players who I actively look forward to having text conflict with because I know I'll walk away satisfied, regardless of who wins--and even with the agreement of possible death. It's because there's going to be some really juicy text flinging and emotional shenanigans. Also, because I'm one of those really annoying players who can't stop spam texting. It's a relief when you find others who click with you.
There's another side to the coin, though, when descriptive writers avoid succinct writers and players who favor mechanical, etc. Decriptive text RPers lose out to quick, one-sentence RPers when a random conflict happens, which imo is bass akwards.
Hell, you could even argue that those who're practiced writers, readers, etc have unfair advantage over those who aren't. You could also argue that it's a struggle between "who's quicker with ideas" and "who hits [enter] after typing *shoots you*."
Even if some sort of ruleset were available for bare minimum time-or-action-based text RPPvP, I'd choose gritty blood / crying / yelling / sweating paragraphs every time, assuming the other player wouldn't go *shoots you.*
We've got the basic rules: no hogging a scene, no forcing others, etc., but the rabbit hole goes incredibly deep.
I think the whole pvp thing boils down to the players sitting behind their computers - and the level of their maturity to accept the fact that the other person is not into text or mech fighting. Which is why there NEEDS to be an agreement. This is a game after all and we are here to enjoy it. Every single person logs in to have FUN.
You might not like or agree with the other's way of having fun - which is exactly why there needs to be some set of rules, or in the least, an agreement between the parties. Otherwise it will only lead to OOC grudges, drama, and to be fair - that's the worst thing that could happen in roleplay - going OOC to argue about things. Once the consent is achieved - go ahead and kill each other in whatever ways you wish to.
Personally I think KoS does not work, because honestly in reality only a mentally shaken person would willingly kill someone (sociopaths, psychopaths - etc.) without GOOD reason. Yes they might rob you, they might even hurt you. But to kill another person is just simply not coded in our genes, period. The only exception would be people conditioned to kill (e.g. elite military units - but even they would not kill you without good reason or direct orders). And most of the server population are civilians currently, unless I'm mistaken and we are surrounded by a bunch of Manson type characters, in which case - my apologies.
I'd like to suggest a good read to support my reasoning (fair warning, it is a long article):
In conclusion, I lean more towards the text based solution as it gives way more freedom than just shooting someone and expect random results - since the game does not allow us to precisely pinpoint of a person's training, skill level, mental state, etc - to decide how successful they would be during a fight. There are dozens of factors that need to be accounted for and to be honest, mech fighting pretty much prevents from using those types of information. However this is still a game and if we can agree with the other player on the method - I'm willing to accept their type of fun too, since well...this is not single player and we are here to build a story of many survivors, not just the story of one.
That's my 2 cents on the pvp topic.
With both of those statements I sure hope both of you understand why I said this
Like Tucker said, "Hybrid" 'RP' which to me is basically "Medium RP"
There are boundries of realism the mechanics cross and there are boundries of realism the RP cross.
We need to push for Creative Realism(Don't be a special snowflake character wise or RP fighting wise and don't use it to your advantage) within' the bounds of Mechanical fairness(Don't use your computer and internet's speed, and your understanding of mechanics to your advantage)
I'm against pure text for the sole reason that if I wanted to do that I'd RP on a text-based RP site and not on a game with programmed mechanics have been implemented to incorporate dice rolls and statistics. Like Jack said, the dice rolls are already there, it's just most players don't like the formula used. In fact, most wouldn't even understand the formula.
When I joined the server PvP was a hybrid of text and mech, with some people opting for all out mech. This was perfect and added suspense to each interaction. The biggest issue is this community and people complaining about repercussions for their actions when they don't go their way. I've been guilty of this and so has pretty much everyone, it's just some are more persistent than others. For example, without naming names one player carried on about their character being revived for HALF THE FUCKING LORE! Result? They had their character revived months after they were killed, and it totally ruined roleplay for everyone. Now apparently retiring your character for a week can ruin roleplay for others...
To be blunt, the biggest issue is half the players here are in the wrong place. They want to ERP, play Sims, or text roleplay. If that is the case go to Club Penguin, Skype or fuckin F-List. This is a game made with mechanics to enable a roleplay experience, it is not actually a roleplaying game (Unlike Neverwinter Nights, which is clearly made for roleplaying). If you are not looking to play a zombie survival game in the manner of roleplaying then you are in the wrong place!
With that logic turned around, people who enjoy mech gaming could join a server of DayZ, or Call of Duty - nothing is text based there, pure mechanic gameplay - or perhaps just hit up a pure pvp server and do their thing, shoot everyone on sight get the thrill of it, more power to them.
People want to enjoy other aspects of roleplay than just pvp and bloodshed and of course they will try to do their best to avoid loosing their characters, they have put just as much thought, time and effort to them as others.
Again, you decide to have your type of fun, others decide to take their type...some will not to like it, but try to accept that people will try to bring more to the table cause to fill the world with realism, sometimes you have to deal with more profound things. Try to accept the fact that not everyone wants to see the same things...in a perfect world it would be achievable but we don't live in a perfect world.
I feel this debate could go on forever as many people will require one thing, and the others would like to see others. Perhaps instead of blaming the community or the players, we could start suggesting what could be done to have a better experience for everyone. The active population on the server is somewhat dwindling as it is currently, and if one half of that is chased away because we cannot agree on something, it'll only turn worse.
I'm going to point out here that the front of the page says,
NEW DAWN ROLEPLAY SERVER
A Server about Roleplaying, character development, and great gameplay
If you want to lean heavy into mechanical combat like KOS, this just isn't the server for you. It's never been what New Dawn is/was about.
I love how you keep relating mechanical with KoS. Please, I will repeat again. You can't go and shoot a person just because you want, not even if you're a bandit. That didn't happen when we played mechanical and it shouldn't.
I understand your points, but I've seen more problems with text fights in the past. I support the idea of a mixed rule, but it'd suck to be brutally murdered by some guy through 828373 lines of test. We stay there describing how blood flies out of our bodies like in a Tarantino movie for an hour while I know that I'm going to die, because my writing is not that fancy and I'd miss all the details.
That or - *shoots guy in the corner who can't escape with his fully auto assault rifle"
((dude u can't kill me u need to give me a chance to react and rp my part noob))
This shouldn't even be a debate IMO. New Dawn has always been a server with rich story and intriguing characters, it has always been roleplay first, mechanics last. Project Zomboid as a game alone, has terrible and unpredictable PVP. The hitboxes are absolutely terrible, I remember standing to the left of somebody a few feet away and still getting a bullet lodged inside my character, despite the fact that they fired once, and in the other direction. A lot of people disagree with me, but my honest opinion is that our characters shouldn't die unless we're comfortable/ready for them too, I personally don't think death drives roleplay as much as people claim, and that events involving villains do.
However, my opinion isn't going to change the way this server is played, but I at least hope it makes sure we never become a KOS server, because if that ever happens I'm pretty sure I'd quit.
I quote Stotch, because he nailed it with that line. It's all I've ever wanted since I joined PZ and it is what I got when I first joined the server.
Now, it is gone...